Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: I think one of the core ideas we've explored on this show is that communication is never just about words or intention.
Speech is a tornado of infinite choices, a moment to moment process through which we shape ideas, emotion, memory, and everything that moves through our bodies and minds.
And yet, no matter how often we circle this truth, someone always comes along with a new angle or a stranger question.
That's what diversity really is, no?
An endless unfolding of the ways we are all mistaken, brilliant, weird and right.
And that's what this experience is about.
Realizing none of us know everything.
But together we might know it all.
Today we are joined by Carol Belandia, advocate, social worker, interpreter, academic, entrepreneur and founder of Equal Access Language Services.
She is also a fellow Colombian.
Karen speaks powerfully about language access.
How often is taken for granted, how normalized it is that we fail to guarantee adequate communication between service providers and and the communities they serve and how we can all do something to change that.
This conversation moves to questions of ethics, responsibility, service, and what it means to act with coherence.
Welcome to Echoes of Meaning.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: I am the founder and CEO of Equal Access Language Services, where we raise awareness about what is language access and advocate for language access by providing interpretation and translation services as well as trade.
I also, I am an avid flamenco learner.
I am learning flamenco dance right now in the south of Spain. I am in Granada and I discovered that it has been like learning another language. Really, the dancing is like learning another language because you have to go through so many steps before you actually learn how to dance.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Thank you.
How did you and when did you started advocating for language access?
[00:02:51] Speaker B: Well, I almost remember the exact date.
I was working at a major hospital in the United States and I was an interpreter, a medical interpreter.
And I would say that the first instance of advocacy that I ever did was when there was a contest at the hospital.
And the contest was called Seeing through a Safer Lens.
And it was an invitation to all departments to participate and express how from their department they help with patient safety.
And so I had that video in my head for a long time actually. I thought, well, definitely the Lagwatch Access department helps with patient safety.
So I directed and created the video with my fellow interpreters. And the video was all about why is it that we have to have language access to make patients services more safe. And the video, which was called Saving Lives in Many Languages, ended up winning first prize in a contest that involved 14 different hospitals. So I was, I was very happy because it was the first time that a non clinical department Language Access was not a clinical department then, and I don't think it is right now, won a patient safety award.
[00:04:27] Speaker C: Right.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: So I would say that that was the first instance I actually advocated for language accessibility within my own organization.
And it was great because many physicians, nurses, administrators got the point. I use a little bit of humor to sort of show how, how they view interpreters and how if we flip the script and we use the same arguments that they use for.
Yeah, oh my God, I can just get rid of the interpretive because I myself speak Spanish, I use that.
I flip the script to show, well, what if we did that? But with nursing, for example.
[00:05:11] Speaker C: Right.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: So the video kind of help clinicians think about the language access issue from a different perspective.
And yes, it was a successful video. The.
The requests for interpretation services increased within the hospital, and I had the honor to be invited to be part of the ethics committee of the Johns Hopkins Hospital. So I was very excited about that.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: So beautiful what art can do, right?
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: Like you created. Yes. You created this expression so others can, could understand that's what you were doing or, or trying to, to spot for others.
Yes.
And then what, what, what did you do after, after that? Like, what was the next step for you in advocacy?
[00:06:13] Speaker B: Well, that was a. That was the kind of like the, the point at which it became very clear to me that I had a real passion for the topic. And then I left the hospital and founded my. My company because I wanted to do it more with my own voice.
And so a year after the video won first prize, I founded Equal Access Language Services.
And.
Well, actually, no, I didn't found it right immediately, but that was the next step. It was not one year later, but it was a couple of years later I founded my company, but I decided to do more of my own consulting work because I had a clear vision about how this was an issue for many and how it impacted healthcare in particular.
And then after that, I realized it doesn't only. Language access doesn't only impact healthcare, it impacts all public services. And so I went into court interpreting, learned about court interpreting, became a certified court interpreter, and then invested into learning more about interpretation in general.
And now I guess if we go on the progression of what, what I'm doing now for advocacy, I created. The last step is I created this program called Effective Inclusion through Language Access, which is course basically it comprises seven different modules. And the goal is again to teach about language access to everybody who is in the medical field field, and to really make the point that when we talk about Inclusion, we have to be real about it. Hanging inclusion beyond just having a number on a piece of paper or having one more nationality somewhere. No, I think inclusion is really allowing people to speak in their own voice and with language access. I think language access is a true path to inclusion. Because you allow for this expression that you were describing earlier.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Thank you for mentioning the fact that inclusion is being able to speak with your own voice.
I think that is a really good way to put it. And we normally don't give enough credit to that fact or, or to the act or of, of expressing yourself with your own voice. Because we know that personality can change in, when you change when you switch languages. Right. And if you're not that fluent in one language, then you start being like clumsy and you cannot actually transmit the confidence that you normally have. You, you don't even have to think about it when, when you speak in your mother tongue. Yes, correct.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: And I, I actually had a sense of that when, as part of my job before I became an interpreter, I would bring many physicians from all over the world for different reasons, whether for symposiums that were going to be held at the hospital or.
Well, different reasons, mostly learning experiences. And I realized that many of them were brilliant people in their countries, but when they were trying to express themselves in English, they didn't come across with that brightness.
[00:10:06] Speaker C: Right.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: And so I was like, wow, what, what a factor language is.
[00:10:11] Speaker C: Right?
[00:10:12] Speaker B: And I realized also that unfortunately the presumption from the physicians home, like where I was working at the time was that not probably they don't know. And it turned out that these physicians from other countries were just as experts. Of course they were learning from our hospital. But the fact that they didn't speak English didn't make them dumber in any way or that they spoke with difficulty. They, many of them were fluent in English and some of them needed interpreters. But you know, in my work I have realized that people sometimes shy away from, from expressing themselves because, because of language barriers. So it's not only even in a public sector, it's also in private sector. Private sector. And when, when people are trying to, to learn from others. And in this setting like conferences, many people don't ask questions because they don't feel confident asking the question in the main language or in this case, English.
So yeah, it gave me a lot to think about.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: Okay. In this show, we have interviewed advocates in interpreting in languages, in language teaching and in endangered alphabets.
And we all agree on the fact that not having the ability to express yourself is important.
And that is something that most people don't acknowledge. And I believe that that is definitely the one of the main reasons why we are experiencing the levels of discrimination that we are experiencing in like everywhere. You know, when we were kids, I'm sure somewhere or another we experience like bullying, for example, because of the way we express ourselves, even in our own languages.
Yes.
Because of the kind of music that you listen to, or the way you dressed, or how you chose to dance, for example. It was a motive of, of bullying and, and, and repression as well. And do you consider that also, like language access, like the covering all those other areas as expression, like you were talking about, of dance?
[00:13:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So I, I think there are two, two different things I want to say about this. On one side, I do believe that language access brings the possibility of hearing the voice of people directly.
[00:13:16] Speaker C: Right.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Provided that interpreters that are doing their job are excellent. Right. And that they allow for that person to express themselves as they wish. And that brings.
Inclusion produces discrimination, for sure, because you are actually in contact with the person directly.
And on the other side, when you talk about expression, expression and the dance, I actually have to tell you that one of the things I've observed. Well, first to put it in context, I am in Granada, Spain right now, and I'm taking flamenco dance classes. And flamenco is a very intricate dance.
And it's not only a dance, obviously there is flamenco, guitar, flamenco, stinging.
So it's a form of art.
And I can't help but comparing my own learning of the dance with learning a language.
[00:14:20] Speaker C: Right.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: And how dancing is all about expressing yourself, but before you can even do that. And I don't know if I'm taking this in a different direction, but what I've observed is that in order for you to actually express, express yourself, right, you have to have an understanding of the compass before than anything else. And then learning kind of like the songs associated with that compass and then of course the movement. So it's a lot of steps that you take on, but only when you have all of these, the dancer comes through. So, so you and I compare it like when you're learning, I don't know, via duolingo or whatever, just learning phrases and all that, but you haven't put them together, there is still not a speech, Right.
So in dance something similar happens. Like you might know the movements, but if you don't combine them with the rhythm or the compass or everything like that, then you don't have a dance yet and the dancer cannot come through until you have sort of pulled everything together. So language in that sense is the way that we can come through. Our personality comes through the language.
[00:15:40] Speaker C: Right.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: Our thoughts come through language, much of our culture come through language. So to me, it was a real shock to find out that in the words diversity, equity and inclusion, for example, there was no provision for language accessibility. This is the reason why I actually went to study diversity, equity and inclusion because I wanted to see if they considered language accessibility as a tool. I found that, of course, language is one of the sections of the intersectionality of the human being and it's named, but it's never addressed what do we do when, when you don't speak the same language. So that caught my attention.
So realizing that was very helpful because it, it gave me the basis to, to create my course, to emphasize more on what I do as a consultant with a clear understanding that not even in the best hospital, not even, sorry, not even in the best school for diversity, equity and inclusion. I learned specifically about language access. So my conclusion was like, there is a lot of work to be done because language access is not spoken about enough.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: So you put a name to the thing you were observing and that you didn't could spot before.
Right. Which is language active.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: And of course, language access has been around for a long time, but it hasn't become a mainstream concept.
[00:17:23] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:24] Speaker B: As you have heard, many advocates in this field have been doing this for years, but people don't know what language access is still.
[00:17:36] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: So if you let me say this maybe four years ago, if I said, well, I work on language accessibility, people I encountered often thought I taught languages.
[00:17:49] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:50] Speaker B: So even though language and access are two words of the English language, the concept wasn't understood.
[00:17:57] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: So finding that gap in people's understanding helped me decide that what I want is for people, everybody, to know what language access is, just the same way as we know what hand sanitizer is.
[00:18:12] Speaker C: Right.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: Because I see it. I equate the two, in fact, with like, if we talk about patient safety and we talk about like, you know, you have to clean your hands before you enter into a patient room, well, you have to ask for an interpreter when there is a language barrier. So I want it to be that per basic, that known by everybody.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: And that is what advocacy is in the first approach. Right. Like sharing what you observe and what you understand that most people might not have in mind.
Right, exactly.
I, I, I have one thought on what you just said, which is the fact that we don't understand what language access is Even though we know it is important like most people. Yeah, of course, language access, everyone should understand.
But the thing that I'm seeing is that even though is a say, transparent expression, language access is not cryptic at all or abstract. Well, no, everything is abstract in a way.
But we see language access and we normally related to an immediate solution, which is translation.
Right.
Like language access means you, you need a translator or some people need trans translators because they don't speak the dominant language. Right.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: And when we interpreters.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, in hospitals, schools, airports, whatever.
But when you separate that immediate solution that you immediately relate with language access, you are left only with the concept of language access. And then you have to think about it, right?
And then you can come to that conclusion that you just came to, which is the fact or the rights that we all should have of expressing ourselves. That is something that we take for granted because we are in dominant cultures.
In the past episode I spoke with Tim Brooks and he is very emphatic on the fact that we as societies that manages language Latin alphabets in front of societies that don't manage language alphabets.
We have an advantage because most dominant language in western societies we have that leverage because we don't have to learn a new script in able to understand English. For example, me as a Latin American. Yeah.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Yes, sorry, go ahead.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: No, you, you go tell me.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: No, no, I, I actually have an experience related to that because my friend first trip outside of, of my country by myself when I was still a teenager was to South Korea.
And as you know, South Korea doesn't use the same Alphabet and. But I, I man. But it's syllabic language anyway and I was able to learn it to a degree that made me somewhat proficient. Of course I don't speak it anymore, but I would say is even my second language because I learned it before I learned English. But I don't remember any of my Korea.
Now. I also had this experience when I lived in the south of India and the language was Malayalam. I lived in Kerala.
Again, different script, but much more difficult than Korean.
And it had 56 different sounds. So coming from an Alphabet with 26 sounds, I think is what we have in Spanish. I think, I'm not sure it's 28, 26.
But going from that number of sounds to 56, you can imagine it was an, an impossible feat as an adult. I mean, with Korean I had a better luck because I, I was younger and my hearing, hearing ability perhaps was much better. No, perhaps not for sure was much better than learning Malayalam. And I felt completely illiterate when I was in India because, I mean, thankfully, many people in the area where I worked spoke English.
But when I venture out of my little circle and there was no English, but only Malayalam or Hindi, I was at a loss. And I. I couldn't read the signs. I didn't know what bus to take because, I mean. So I was like, wow, this is how it feels to be in a. In a dominant language and not having any idea. So. So I wrote about that experience in a blog because it's like I felt. I felt little.
I. I was gonna say I felt literally illiterate.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Lost in translation. Definitely 100.
[00:23:57] Speaker C: 100.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Did. Did you see that movie?
[00:24:00] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Oh, my God. It's so. I mean, I think can illustrate very well how. How you can feel. And I think. Have. Have you watched BoJack Horsemen?
[00:24:15] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: Oh, it's a great series. It's an animated series, and there's an episode where the main character, he goes to the bottom of the ocean, and in the bottom of the ocean, like, he's like a horse. It's a pretty weird show, but he is a horse. And then he goes to the bottom of the ocean, and he has, like, this helmet, so he can breathe.
So. And he cannot communicate with the fishes that are in the bottom of the ocean because he has this helmet, and everything is so weird. And of course, there's these creatures with tentacles and a bunch of different creatures that he cannot communicate with.
That is the kind of feeling that a person can experiment when they are in a different culture with different alphabets and different everything.
And having a person that can see through that complexity of that experience is priceless, right?
[00:25:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yes.
It makes you much more humble, because once you realize that the language that you consider dominant is definitely not necessarily spoken everywhere.
[00:25:38] Speaker C: Right.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: Especially when I was in Korea, I only spoke Spanish and some English. Very little.
It was obviously a humbling experience because I couldn't use my Spanish. Very, very few people spoke Spanish. I only met two people in the whole year I was there.
And so I had to resort to other ways of expressing myself.
I had to learn some words of English to communicate with one group. So it was a very humbling experience.
Same with India. And I think it's good to experience, to some level, the inability to speak and help yourself think about, oh, my God, this is what 26 million people experience on a daily basis in the United States. Face. Like, if you travel and the language spoken is not your dominant language, then how do you feel about that?
[00:26:37] Speaker C: Right?
[00:26:39] Speaker A: Definitely.
What is it that you want to achieve?
What is your goal with your organization?
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Well, definitely eliminating language based discrimination, meaning provide, provide public safety services to people that don't speak English where language barriers don't exist.
[00:27:04] Speaker C: Right.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: So using effective communication, language access. So I want to achieve justice in that way because there is so much work to do just there.
[00:27:15] Speaker C: Right.
[00:27:17] Speaker B: That's what I want to achieve. And helping people understand that we can all be in the position of not being understood with the world. How it is today, globalization, travel, you might be in a situation where you are not understood. So I want to embed this idea of language accessibility and the importance of it for expression and for justice in everybody's mind basically so that they know what to do if they are in a situation like that. What are the rights? For example, I would, I would love for the 26 million people that live in the United States that don't speak English. I would love for them to know that they have a right to be understood and understand what is being told to them, especially. Especially in certain contexts.
[00:28:15] Speaker C: Right.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: And I also would like for people in general to understand that the importance of accessibility and how it operates like a ramp.
[00:28:26] Speaker C: Right.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: So we should not treat a person in a different way just because they don't speak the dominant language.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: Of course. And that's what we were talking about before with the duty thing, like with the solution.
So if you are a service provider, you know that you have to provide a service to the people that need it.
But from the advocate or advocacy perspective, there's also work to be done with people that do speak the language, the dominant language, so they can understand the struggles. And I mean, yes, I mean we are in a society, you know, so we all have things to do within the society. Right.
The responsibility and whatnot. And understanding the fact that we all can be misunderstood is something important for those society members.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Absolutely. And it has so much impact beyond just the one on one communication.
[00:29:33] Speaker C: Right.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: I think every conflict sparks from miscommunication, lack of understanding, something that was said but not meant, etc.
Exactly. So I often see all this as lever of the big bio building piece and through inclusion.
[00:29:58] Speaker C: Right.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: And you're right, I think every one of us has a role to play in life.
[00:30:09] Speaker C: Right.
[00:30:09] Speaker B: And I chose this sliver and this is what I want to focus on because as a social worker I realize there are so many issues to that that affect the human being.
[00:30:28] Speaker C: Right.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: That I, I thought at some point I have to focus on one because otherwise that my heart is going to be Just broken.
[00:30:36] Speaker C: Right.
[00:30:36] Speaker B: Because there is children issues, women's issues, all sorts of injustices, poverty, so many different things. So I chose language accessibility as my OR issue.
[00:30:51] Speaker A: And I think it's a great perspective.
I think we all agree in the fact that we don't talk about this enough.
Yeah.
Yes. And this is a great perspective to be.
Or to try to elaborate in the public speech, you know, in the common conversations.
We agree also that we as linguists need to talk about what we do more and more and more so people have a richer. A richer conception on what language is. And stop thinking that it's something that you have to learn because you're here.
Right.
There are. Yeah. What you just said.
All conflicts starts with a misunderstanding. Yes. And oversimplification of. Of whatever concept. And if we all agree that in the fact that we all have different definitions on everything, we might can start there.
[00:32:00] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: I think that's what you say about the need for us to speak more about what I do is so key, Mila, because I think that the. One of the reasons why now language access is under attack in the United States, as you may know, that there are regulations that are being taken away.
The reason why. My reason. This is my explanation. Of course, I haven't done research on this, but what I feel that would have helped, or rather the way I explain how one of the reasons why we are here right now questioning if language access is even necessary at the government policy level is because we don't talk about it enough. Right. So there obviously is an ignorant decision.
It doesn't.
I don't think it is well understood the impact of language barriers. I don't think it's well understood. And it's seen, based on what I have read about the recent law, is completely misunderstood as an expense and is not conceived as a ramp as a way to provide access, but rather just like.
As a way to exclude people, which is very unfortunate. And I think if we were to talk more about how our job impact communication, conflict, et cetera, or the resolution of conflict, we can change that reality back to. Not back. I don't want to. To be back to what it was before, but to improve even what was before and so get something, some law that's even stronger than the executive orders that we had in the past, but actually write it in the code, some kind of law that makes it clear and sets the message that language accessibility is essential and it is a right.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: Of course. Let's talk about those executive orders.
What was the number of the order?
[00:34:26] Speaker B: Do you Remember the new one, the Executive order, the last one?
[00:34:32] Speaker A: Yes. You wrote an article about that. Well, let's talk about that 14224, huh? And what is that order about, please?
[00:34:42] Speaker B: So executive order 14224, basically.
Well, it was signed earlier this year, right. And to me, I remember of course, the date and time when it, when it happened, because it was a shock.
And I had actually just recorded a podcast about whether or not this, you know, we were going to Keep Executive Order 1 to 16 6, and everybody on that podcast was like, yeah, I don't think this is ever going to go away.
And like two days later it went away.
So what this law is about is that it formally designates English as the official language of the United States and also revokes Executive Order 13166.
And that executive order, which was signed by President Clinton in the year 2000, was to ensure meaningful access to services for the limited interest proficient population.
So it's not that the law, the new law is going to prohibit anybody from providing language accessibility, but is going to go and examine the usefulness of the translation if there are perhaps too many translations. I think I read somewhere like unnecessary translation, and it made me think, like what would be considered an unnecessary translation. It's the same as if I were to say, well, I'm going to go to that building and check if there are perhaps unnecessary ramps and maybe I should put a step instead of a ramp. I mean, it's a little absurd. I really don't think the new order accomplishes anything other than telling people who don't speak English, you don't belong here and you need to learn English in order to succeed in this country, which I don't think is necessarily either true or helpful in any way, shape or form.
It's just a symbol. But it's a symbol of exclusion, unfortunately.
[00:36:51] Speaker A: Definitely. And we see the importance of definitions.
Yes. Like if we are all talking about the same.
No, in the same dimension of what language is. It makes sense, of course, yes. You're here, you have to learn the language of here, whatever that means, you know, or whatever it is, or whatever that is.
But if we understand language of the as the human thing that belong, that you cannot change about yourself and that you need to be able to say what it is that you need to say because of survival, because of, I don't know, touch, you see, then, then that is not in question.
The fact that you shouldn't prohibit people the right to seek for whatever it is that you need to express Yourself or understand what's going on around you.
[00:38:05] Speaker B: You know, yes, it, unfortunately it will send the wrong message and then you already see how it's having an impact. So I continue to work for the courts, even so remotely. But one of the experiences I have had is that now more openly, attorneys would say, at least it happens once, okay, well, you should speak English or you. Why is it that you have been here so long and you don't speak English? I remember there was even a judge who said right after this law was, or this executive order was issued who basically denied the person an interpreter because that person had been in the country for over 20 years.
So it's going to allow for people who really dislike the fact that others don't speak English to act on it because it's not going to be sanctioned or is not going to be.
Yeah, it's not gonna, it's gonna, not gonna have any kind of punishment.
So this is why I emphasize so much on ethics, professional ethics, because I actually studied the codes of ethics of attorneys, nurses, pharmacists, doctors, social workers, dentists, and all of them have a canon on effective communication and another canon on working with the community that they serve.
So I want so badly to connect those two canons of every code of ethics with the idea that unless you embed language accessibility in your modus operandi, you are not going to fulfill your code of ethics. So kind of transferring the burden to the professional who know, who needs to know better, that they need to provide language access because is the right thing to do. Right. So they also need to join us in advocating for this. Right. Even if they speak English, they also cannot communicate with their patient if they don't speak the language of the patient.
So that's why I'm trying to shift the idea to, okay, let's, let's put some responsibility into the professionals that are actually serving the community. Because if you are a lawyer, especially if you're an immigration lawyer.
[00:40:43] Speaker C: Right.
[00:40:43] Speaker B: If you're a lawyer, if you're a doctor, if you're a nurse, a social worker, a pharmacist, etc. You are going to encounter a limited English proficient person at some point. It's impossible that you don't. So you need to know what to do.
[00:41:00] Speaker C: Right.
[00:41:02] Speaker B: You need to fulfill your code of ethics.
[00:41:05] Speaker A: Of course. Especially if you live in these highly diverse communities or societies.
Yeah.
Yes, I think that's what. Yes, I think that's one of the things that this kind of the legislations need or are meant to regulate, which is like protecting this nature of societies. Right.
If we say that we want to bring the best or not the best. I don't want to use that word.
If we, if we. If we claim to be a society or societies that want to embrace the nature and the richness of humankind as a whole, we cannot just say that we don't appreciate certain languages, you know?
[00:42:03] Speaker B: Correct. I mean, and this is why I. I will be forever fascinated with the idea of ethics and why there is an emphasis on professional communities on ethics. I mean, I have two different degrees that require my attunement to ethics and that social work degree, and that is the. Well, I don't have an interpreter degree, but I am a certified interpreter. And unless I take three credits of ethics every time or every cycle or six credits in the case of social workers, only on ethics, I can continue to be certified, license or whatever. So that emphasis should remain.
And I wish we talked about.
We talked about ethics more.
[00:42:58] Speaker C: Right.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: I don't know, you know, the current state of affairs in the schools or anything like that. I. I don't know it closely, but.
But ethics should never be boring. Is it? Like. Like this kind of conversation should never bore you. It should interest you and. And spark your desire to just be a better human being and. And really make society and the world better, you know?
[00:43:28] Speaker A: Yes. And try to preserve certain values that protect. And.
Yeah. That protect these.
These kinds of approaches that. Of healthy approaches to expression and. And.
Right. I like the fact that you talk about ethics like that because I think you are absolutely right.
And we don't talk about ethics enough. We actually are very confused on what ethic is. Is. Ethics are. Or ethics is. Ethic, Ethic, Ethics, Ethics.
[00:44:10] Speaker B: Yes, I think so.
[00:44:11] Speaker A: Ethics are. Okay in Spanish. Is singular ethica.
And yes, is. Is, of course, are. Are those codes or, or those pillars that, whether you quote, unquote, understand them or not, they are protecting you as well, you know, And. And your freedom and your limits and your reach and how your actions can impact others and vice versa.
[00:44:44] Speaker B: That's an excellent definition, Mila. I think some. So many people struggle with the basic definition of ethics. And you just did it perfectly.
[00:44:53] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
It guides our behavior, is our compass.
[00:45:00] Speaker C: Right.
[00:45:01] Speaker B: It help us decide how to act appropriately so that unresponsibly.
[00:45:08] Speaker C: Right.
[00:45:08] Speaker B: And how to respect others.
It's what keeps us. It's one of the aspects that keep us. Keep us human.
[00:45:16] Speaker A: Definitely. And we as societies, we need certain boundaries. And we're not talking about morals, which is. It's different.
There are different things. There are different things. And we like when people start arguing about whether if something is acceptable or inacceptable, they are normally talking about morals, which is like your personal values, and how you can be demanding to others with.
Regarding those values that you are standing for. We are not talking about that. We are talking about houses, societies can protect their main, their core.
I want to say values, I want to say freedom.
[00:46:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:06] Speaker A: Principle. Yeah. The freedom of. Because, Yeah. I mean that's, that's what a company tries to do when it's built and you set a mission and a vision. Right.
So in certain crisis, you know where your north is and you can take decisions or make the decisions based on that. And yeah. You're knowing that what, whatever it is that is going on, if you go that way is going to be okay, you know, and you're not going to be transpassing and.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yes. And violence. If we bring that to the context of, for example, the new law.
[00:46:52] Speaker C: Right.
[00:46:53] Speaker B: I have had this conversation with different people from our industry who perhaps have been afraid of say, well, you know, people should learn English.
And of course, I mean, do I disagree that new members of our American society need to do whatever it takes to learn English? I don't disagree with that idea. I don't think it's a matter of either or. I think what we need to understand is that there are moments where we have to organize those values. So for example, if you're learning English and you're fine, great, you, you're doing that. But it turns out you became sick and at that moment you don't. You were not proficient in English. So I don't think it's the correct way of approaching things, going like, well, you should learn English before actually your heart attack. It's like at that moment, shut up and help the person. Right. So it's all a matter of how you reorganize this. It's not that I, that I am opposed to people learning English. That's not the idea.
[00:48:06] Speaker C: Right.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: It's just like learn how to demand this in the right moment.
[00:48:13] Speaker C: Right.
[00:48:14] Speaker B: It's not at the hospital, is not in a hearing.
[00:48:17] Speaker C: Right.
[00:48:18] Speaker B: And it's not when a parent is trying to access the education for their children. Those are not the times when you are judgmental and wondering why people are not learning English. But by all means dedicate funds for the learning of English. I'm not opposed to that. But also dedicate funds for the learning of other languages because English is in no danger of disappearing, whereas many languages are. And Actually, what makes our culture greater is the fact that we have other languages, not the fact that we have English.
So.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: Yes, the importance of lar. Of learning new languages, Carol, that is, that is so like, I don't want to say basic, but it is basic. Like the fact that we can experience how your mind, even your brain can change when you are trying to express yourself in a different way.
That, that is something. And I am not saying that if you learn more than one language, then you will understand why it is important, because there are a lot of people that speak more than one langu and are demanding this kind of.
Of measures, you know, suppressing others because. Or oppressing others because they can only speak one. And there are people that just don't want to do it and are not capable of doing it or whatever it is that is their case.
But yeah, I mean, if you can be in a scenario like the one you were in, in South Korea or in India, then you would have. Will have a different perspective or of what adversity is.
And yeah, it would be humbling. And then you would understand that speaking more than that. The fact that the world has more than one language is essential. Like, it creates the diversity that we all are here for.
[00:50:32] Speaker B: You know, And I see it from the other perspective as well. Like, I, here in Spain, because of flamenco also, a lot of people come with only English, but they, they have learned in their countries about the dance and all that.
And sometimes they approach the fact that the teachers don't speak English, for example, like, oh my God, they don't. I don't understand that teacher. And they, they feel lost. But even imagine if they feel frustrated when in a dancing class, they cannot understand all of the instructions of the teacher.
How. How would it be? They have to go to a hospital, right? So I, I feel like the attitude in the other direction, like when people don't speak English in, when. When a person that speak English goes to a country where they say speak another language, they feel like they should learn English, that the other countries should speak English to them, as opposed to them trying to learn the local language. So I don't know, I observe these kinds of things and I find endless source of amusement on that.
[00:51:41] Speaker A: I want to say one last thing about this, which is we are like the tendency that we have to control things, right? It takes away the wonder and all the fun that we can find in not understanding everything, you know, and, and appreciating actually something that is very different from what. Of what we know.
Having a country so Diverse.
And I am in Colombia, you know, we have like, how many, like more than 20 different indigenous languages here.
And that is beautiful.
And I would love to see different people just talking in different languages in the street and me not understanding everything. It would be like, fantastic, you know, of fantasy, like, what is going on? Wow, these people are so different, you know, like actual diversity just happening all over the place.
That is richness, you know, that is, that is beautiful. And if we have this tendency of controlling everything, of feeling threatened because we don't understand something that the other person is saying next to us and that's, that makes us boring.
[00:53:31] Speaker B: You know, a little story I, I, I talk about when I teach, and it's also in one of the modules of the Effective Inclusion through Language Access course.
It's about how our founding fathers, the United States founding fathers, foretold all this. Like they, they knew our country was diverse from day one, from the moment the United States became a country, there was already language diversity in the U.S. linguistic diversity in the U.S. sorry.
There was a fifth of the population that spoke no English.
[00:54:10] Speaker C: Right.
[00:54:11] Speaker B: And even though the proportions have changed over the years because different agreements, right.
When the United States purchased the Louisiana region from France, then the number increased to one third of the population not speaking English.
So limited English proficiency has always been a part of what makes the US and the Founding Fathers decided not to have an official language for that reason.
So it's like going backwards 200 years with this law.
Is that bad?
[00:54:52] Speaker A: I think it's a good way to put it.
Thank you. Thank you for, for putting it that way.
It's very clear, Carl, what everybody can do to, to approach this topic of language access. Like.
Yeah, what is it? I mean, you as, as, as an entrepreneur, as an advocate, you do such things, right? You provide services. You talk about this a normal person that doesn't have the same experience. What can they do to make a change?
[00:55:34] Speaker B: Thank you for that question. Lots of things. So if you speak English, but you come from a family where many people don't speak English, tell them it is a steal, their right under Title six to have to not be discriminated on the basis of language. So inform your family members that whenever they go to the hospital or a court or in a school setting, they can ask for an interpreter.
They don't have to endure the conversation without understanding.
They have a right to understand as well.
If you are a professional, a public service professional like doctor, nurse, social worker, etc. Know that you have an ethical responsibility to the community that you work for and then learn how to access language services, how to ask for an interpreter, how to ask for a translator. What's the difference? Also what are the qualifications that they should have? Because you can actually learn what the qualifications are so that you know what you're demanding. Just the same way that we know that doctor is only a doctor until they went to so many years of school and have a degree on medicine.
Right, we know, okay, this person is recognized as a doctor. Same with interpretation profession. So if you are in the public service, if you're a professional in the public service, then abide by your own code of ethics and also learn the characteristics of professional interpreters and translators. If you are a business owner or the, or a leader in a hospital or somebody or a decision maker, budget then for language access services, right? I see a lot of organizations and companies that don't put it in the budget and then when they need some language translation, they are scrambling and asking people to volunteer. And I don't have anything against volunteering. But why is it always the language services that has to be volunteered? Why is it always the language services that has to be done by non professionals?
[00:57:56] Speaker C: Right.
[00:57:56] Speaker B: We wouldn't ask a person that likes the idea of being a doctor, but only has, you know, very rudimentary knowledge about medicine to just volunteer the doctors. Why are we doing it with bilingual people that don't, that are not interpreters? So if you're in a position of power and of creating policies internal to your organization, then create a language access plan and put it in the budget so you're not like, oh, we don't have any money to pay you.
[00:58:23] Speaker C: Right?
[00:58:24] Speaker B: And if you are a policymaker, a politician, then understand that the language will understand the impact of language barriers in the greater context. So in another podcast, I explain how language barriers account for billions of dollars that we waste in communication errors just in healthcare.
[00:58:52] Speaker C: Right?
[00:58:54] Speaker B: So think about these numbers. Study what is the impact of language barriers in a macro level so that you can design policies that are effective and are going to reduce this, which, I mean, an effective policy is basically having language access in all these instances where language barriers could be catastrophic.
[00:59:19] Speaker C: Right?
[00:59:20] Speaker B: So that sums it up.
And then making sure that in all the levels of your organization. So let me give you the example of a big hospital. So you're in a big hospital and some people know about how to use interpreters, but others don't. Everybody should know how to call the language line, I'm sorry, the language line or the interpreter line, and make sure that Everybody, whether this is from the screen person to the surgeon or if this is in a medical context, but the administrator as well as the clinician knows how to access these services.
That's another thing you, you must do. So everybody has a role to play. It's not only for advocates, it's for everybody. We can all advocate for better language access services. If you're a family member too, like don't let the doctor or the attorney use you as the interpreter. You have a right to be with your family member, taking notes, being support person. You don't have to work for the doctor at the moment.
[01:00:25] Speaker C: Right?
[01:00:25] Speaker B: You're accompanying your family member. So don't let them assign you the role of the interpreter when you are with your family member is not fair. It's also not productive. You need to remember what's going on.
[01:00:39] Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you for pointing that out. I think it's super, super important that we all know how we can or how we should be a part of this conversation and be empowered, you know, in, in our rights as well.
Thank you Carlo, for this time, for, for. For your insights and your, and sharing your experience and your knowledge. Is there anything you would like to comment, say before we go?
[01:01:12] Speaker B: Mila, I just want to thank you for underscoring this issue. I really think that the more we speak about, the more is going to be in the consciousness of people.
And the only thing I would like to just say is if you allow me, of course you can cut this off if it's not allowed. But to say that I am, I finally have my effective inclusion through language access course online and is ready to be launched and it will be launched soon. For everybody who is in the usually in the healthcare field, they can benefit from this training a lot because they will have continued education, credit and other wonderful things coming with the training.
[01:01:54] Speaker A: And if people want to hire your services and or be a part of your organization, how can they reach out to you?
[01:02:03] Speaker B: Definitely contact me. My email address is Carol velandiaqualaccesslanguageservices.com and they can contact me. I would be delighted to hear from anybody.
[01:02:19] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to Echoes of Meaning. My name is Camila Sabogal. I'm a media producer at Multilingual Media and if today's conversation stayed with you, I'd really appreciate it if you left a comment or rated the podcast whenever you're listening. It helps more people find this stories and the meaning behind them.
See you next month and let's remember to listen.
