Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Have you ever thought about what makes a linguist?
Well, I think about that all the time.
I think about the meaning of words, of conventions, of symbols, and how we somehow agreed on, imposed or debated every single one of them. I think about what we hide behind words and gestures.
Being a linguist means seeing language as something far beyond grammar or vocabulary. It's our first technology, our original art form, the one through which we name, dream and connect.
Language is everything that comes out of us. It's the shape of our thoughts and the bridge to someone else's.
That's what makes me a linguist. The fixation would always absorb observing it, analyzing it, appreciating it, and never quite knowing what it really is.
My name is Camila Zavogal. I'm a growth marketer and media producer at Multilingual Media and now host of Echoes of Meaning, a show where we explore the linguistics and meanings of things through more linguistics and meanings of things like everything we do.
And now let's begin with our very first guest.
Today we are joined by Lefteriska Fatos, a former diplomatic interpreter who has spent over 15 years at the crossroads of language and diplomacy. After living and studying in Japan for nearly a decade, his craft has taken him to historic moments, including President Obama's visit to Hiroshima and high level meetings between heads of state states.
His career reminds us that interpreting is not simply about words, but about carrying the full weight of culture, emotion and history across fragile, invisible bridges.
Through his experience, Lefteris brings us closer to the quiet complexity behind every successful act of communication and invites us to rethink the human craft and the heart of it all.
Welcome to Echoes of mini.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: Well, first, Camila, thanks so much for having me again and really glad to have an opportunity to talk with you again.
Yes. So I had some informal training when I was in Japan. I spent about nine years in Japan and I took, you know, a night class at the. There was a language center in Okinawa that I was. I took night classes for translation and then I also attended Stanford University's Japanese graduate level Japanese program in Yokohama.
So that's where I really worked on mine, I guess you could say my language skills. But my training as an interpreter, I did that in, in the U.S. at the Monterey Institute in Monterey, California.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Okay, but you had some approximation to the craft of, of interpreting in Japan, is that right?
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. So I was in Japan on the Japan Exchange teaching program. It's called the JET program, which is very well known program in the realm of like US Japan relations. And basically it's a program where the ministry of education in Japan invites, you know, young college graduates primarily from English speaking countries, but not always. I think there are also some from francophone countries, if I'm not mistaken. But, and so, yes, I, I attended that. And in the course of doing that, it was around the time, so the group of seven summit, that happens now, it used to be The Group of Eight when Russia was still part of the Group of Eight, the G8, as they say, and that was going to be held in Okinawa. And so in the course of being on the JET program and being kind of a coordinator for these English teachers coming to visit Okinawa, I started to get more of these, like, hey, could you translate this letter? Or you know, hey, we're having a meeting with somebody from a U. S. Base. Can you come and help us with the communication? And so I was kind of gradually introduced to the work that way. So. And that's when I realized, okay, you know, I have, I'm interested in this, but just being able to speak the language isn't enough. Like there I needed, I knew that I needed to have proper professional training.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: Was it a time or, or a specific moment where you realized it wasn't enough just to just in quotes, to know the language?
[00:05:06] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, when I had to sit in one time I had to sit in on. So I was working at the, the board of education in Okinawa through the JET program. The JET program assigned me there. And so, and at one point I had to, I guess you would say interpret, but it was like, you know, really amateurish style interpreting. But I had to interpret at a, at a contract negotiation.
And that was painful. So I realized, you know, I, that I didn't realize, I didn't realize exactly what I needed.
But then later on I was like, oh, I need to know note taking. You know, I need note taking techniques. I need, you know, to have a glossary, you know, to work, look up these words in advance. I need, you know, the understanding of. What's the title, the job title of that person over there? What's the job title of this person over here? What is it in Japanese? What is it in English? Like all of that type of how to prepare for an assignment, all of those things that I just had no idea. And so, but I could tell that something, I don't have something here and I need to go get it.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely, like the technique, the more technical aspect of, of, of of the craft. That's my favorite word now. You know, when I talk about, I Always say craft, craft, craft, craft, craft. So thank you.
Enlighten me about this wonderful word.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Thank you.
It's. It. It is. That's the word for what we do, you know, that's absolutely what we do.
[00:06:44] Speaker A: The craft is the way we follow. Is that right?
[00:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: And how we choose to develop certain skill. Right, that's right. Yeah.
And in this case, we're talking about technique. Like.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Technique.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Right. The, the.
The. Definitely how you choose and what tools do you have to. To perform your craft.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: Makes sense. Yeah.
[00:07:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're right. You know, in. In Greek, the word for art is techni, which is technique and technical. Right. So I think in some. I will just speak. In the US I think there is some perception that art is like kind of some kind of magical thing.
It's kind of a female. You either have it or you don't.
And, and I think especially in the. In the European tradition, where it's like, well, these are skills that you can. You. You hone and you work on.
You know, Pablo Picasso didn't suddenly just come out with his, you know, blue period. Before that, he was drawing, you know, with photographic precision, you know, know how to draw a glass vase or, you know, any number of things. And then he worked on that technique and then got to this higher art. Right. So. So I think the two are intertwined. Absolutely.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Is there a difference in between when you did it in Japan and when you did it in the States? Could you sp.
In the praxis, maybe?
[00:08:19] Speaker B: In the praxis, yeah.
Well, I think, you know, when I was living in Japan and facilitating communication between, for example, you know, English speakers and. And. And native Japanese speakers, I was in the context of Japan. Right. And so the. The context in which the work takes place matters. Right. And, um.
But, you know, I think that how I conducted myself, how I conduct myself as an interpreter when I'm in the organization, as opposed to somebody who's just visiting to help facilitate the communication, then the role changes. It's kind of like, in a way, kind of like, you know, when a big ship comes into a port, you know, the.
The harbor master might send a little boat and say, we're going to help you drive your boat into the harbor.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: But then after it's finished, that person gets on the boat and leaves. It's your ship. You know, I'm done.
But it's another thing to be an interpreter that works in that modality, as opposed to the interpreter who is in the same ship, in the same boat with the. With the people all the time. And, and so I think for me, the praxis changes more based on that.
And then there are praxis differences if I'm interpreting primarily from Japanese into English or from English into Japanese. And also if there is a power dynamic between the speakers.
Yeah, so like.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great point. I'm sorry to interrupt.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: No, please.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: Because. Yes. Power dynamics in between this, especially in the diplomatic exercise. Right.
How can, I mean, what, what insights do you have on that or, or any observation or how to deal with that dynamic? Because it happens.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: It does.
It does. It absolutely does.
So, you know, in diplomacy, in the theoretical realm of diplomacy, everyone is equal. Right.
You know, but in, in, you know, the President of the United States should be on the same, you know, level of footing as, you know, the President of France. Right. Like, there's a, there's a certain, you know, equality or egalitarianism or just everyone is treated as, as equal. But as you've rightly, you know, alluded to in actual, in real life, you know, there is a power dynamic. You know, if one country is receiving aid and the other country is providing the aid, there's going to be, you know, this situation in the case of, you know, the United States and Japan, it's a, it's a gradually changing phenomenon because, you know, the entire post World War II order that, that came to be in Japan was born out of the destruction of World War II was largely facilitated by the US occupation of Japan.
And the Americans who were there wrote the Japanese constitution.
They, you know, set up the system for how democracy will be conducted. You know, the structures of voting and, you know, the, the structures of government, the legislative system versus the executive branch. So all of those things were, you know, there's kind of, it kind of feels like in the DNA of the system, there's a little bit of this, you know, because the US Won the war. Right.
Of course, that was, you know, 70, 80 something years ago. So now that power dynamic is changing and, and absolutely, as an interpreter who has been working for several years, many years, you know, there are these subtle things that change in the meanings that you say. Oh, slightly. This dynamic is starting to change.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: Sound. Sounds like the, that's what you learn with the experience. Right. And how to deal with those situations that might come, come out of that fact of the power dynamics is something that you just learned with, with doing it, you know.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: Doing the thing.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: I mean, as an interpreter. As an interpreter, I'm not, I don't, I try not to be. I don't try not to change the output of my interpretation.
You know, to give you an example, when I was in. When I was in Okinawa, I was at the Board of Education and a lady from the Philippines who was, you know, working hard, labor, you know, difficult jobs in Japan. Right.
Manual labor.
She came to the Board of Education wanting to enroll her children in the Japanese school system.
So at that point, there's a power dynamic. Right.
Right off the bat, there's a side that says, we will either accept you or we won't. And there's a side that said, please accept our children and my children. And so I think in that situation, I think I tried to the best of my ability to just serve the communication. And so I think that's really important for the interpreter to maintain a little bit of distance, a little bit of professionalism, and treat everyone as, you know, equal interlocutors in the communication.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Like that neutrality aspect or principle of the interpreting is definitely like something we look for.
[00:15:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: It's complicated. And I believe that's what the training prepares you for. Right.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: To be able to distance yourself from the situation and not involve. And not. Not be emotionally involved in the thing.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: That's right. So at the Monterey Institute, it's called the Middlebury Institute now, but it. Back when I was there was a Monterey Institute, we had course. We had classes where the professors would.
They would break us into groups, and one of us would be, you know, a president or a director or something, and we had a card that told us, we want you to do this. You know, and then the interpreter, who didn't know anything about the instructions that were given to the principal. And so sometimes that principal would, you know, throw a curveball, you know, so, for example, say something racially inappropriate or, you know, you know, something that could be interpreted as sexual harassment or, you know, that sort of thing. And so the really. The test was, does the, you know, we're looking at. Does the interpreter continue to interpret, you know, even if these things happen?
So you can't have a situation where the interpreter's face is like, I can't believe he just said that. You know, in diplomatic settings, you say what was said, you know.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: Funny.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like the. The analogy of the boats that helps you get to the other side.
I think it gives us, like, a feeling of what we are looking for when we're interpreting in this case. Right. Like you are trying to facilitate.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: And yes, we can try to distance ourselves from any emotionality, any contest context, that might feel like one person is in a very vulnerable state or, or context regarding, in comparison with the other.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: But the emotional side, the emotional aspect of it is not only from the interpreter to their client. Right. It can also be backwards. Like the client can be some kind of emotionally attached to the interpreter. Right, Absolutely. They can, like, find some sort of warm warmth.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. Yeah. Camille, I think you really hit it on the head.
You know, I had a situation, you know, there's, you know, phenotype plays a role in Japanese English interpretation. Right. So I've been in situations where, for example, I was an. I was interpreting for a while early in my career at manufacturing plants in the south of the US and the Japanese side, the team that was going to be requiring my services did not initially perceive me as, like you said, this, like this close friend, this warmth. But as soon as they had, they were there before me and they had struggled and struggled and struggled with this communication. And then I came and I facilitated their communication and things started to go very easily for them within a very short amount of time.
They attached to me and, and felt close to me. I feel in a way that perhaps would not otherwise have happened.
You know, let's say if I was in Japan and I'm walking down the street and they saw me, I don't think that they would particularly feel some kind of, you know, warmth towards me.
So there is, there is a certain linguistic allyship or cultural, like, you know, hey, you get what I'm trying to say, don't you? You know, like this. There is a connection there. And, and while it's important to foster that and to, to acknowledge it, the, the danger, especially if you're working in diplomatic interpreting, is that if you become too much, too close to the person, then that can, that can really change the output of your interpretation.
[00:19:37] Speaker A: Awesome. It sounds like aha moment. Like you actually get me, like the inner text, you know, then you are like somehow even mentally, like connected with the person. And they get it. Oh, this guy actually understands what I'm saying. And understands may be also where I am coming from.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think maybe it's a conscious thought sometimes. Maybe it's a subconscious thought. They're not even really aware.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Definitely, definitely. It's a feeling that they recognize. And it's like, huh, this is, this is working, right?
[00:20:16] Speaker B: For sure. Yeah, this is working.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: So we have this fine line then in between connection and the professional. Let's call it detachment.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:20:32] Speaker A: How do you. Or what rituals, maybe what measures would you say that you have to make sure that you are safe, like emotionally and also physically safe in your exercise.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: Safe in terms of like maintaining that professionalism or like taking care of myself as an individual?
[00:21:00] Speaker A: Yes. Taking care of yourself.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, the first part of that, it's, it's so crucial.
And the first part of that I think was, you know, when I was younger and feeling like I had to prove something and hungry to get more work, self care, proper meals, know, proper rest, all of those things are, you know, they were secondary or even tertiary considerations. They weren't, you know, the first thing was like, let me show them I can do it. You know, let me take the assignment.
And so first, the first hurdle is overcoming this like, you know, you know, this kind of mythology or this romanticizing of the person who just works all the time, you know, know. And that exists in the, in, in the US it also exist, exists in Japan. And some of those things are similar and some of them are different. But this like, you know, work is most important mindset, it's like now where I am now, it's like if work is most important, then it's, then it's absolutely crucial to take care of yourself.
If this is important. You're saying this is important, right? Then I, then it's better. I really need to get, I need to get rest. I need to do what's, what's right because, you know, this, I've, I've seen this in the US government, I've seen this in many different places. But it's like, you know, almost this kind of bragging about how little sleep somebody got, you know, because they're, you know, slamming for the next, you know, the next big event. And it's like if you are sleep deprived days in a row, like that's going to really hinder your judgment and your ability to do your job well. And you know, we have not nearly enough. But there are, there is research with regard to interpretation that shows, well, the more tired you get, the worse the quality gets, you know, so, so I think that's a, that's different for me now is that if it's important, then self care is really important.
Yeah.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: Yes. And of course there are a lot of things that the mainstream culture doesn't know about interpreting and translation.
What would you say are the most common misconceptions of, in, of, of this diplomatic interpreting? Let's go more, more specific.
[00:23:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, to be honest with you, I've been pretty surprised at how I, I'll speak from the context of the United States.
And I, I have some contextual experience with Japan as well.
There is a lot more ignorance, unfortunately, on the US Side than there is on the Japan side.
It's, it's not uncommon, even in the U. S. Government to come across officials who are engaging in diplomacy who don't know the difference between translation and interpretation.
It's a big one. It's a big one. Yeah.
[00:24:18] Speaker A: It's a big one.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
So that's, that's something.
Another misconception, I think, is that, well, you know, you just.
I can't share this, you know, these talking points or this like, you know, speech script with you, but don't worry, I'll speak slowly, and all you have to do is just say what I'm going to say. Right.
And so, you know, if the problem with that, as you well know, is that, you know, even if I have fluency in the language, that doesn't mean I have fluency in this particular topic. Right. You know, so, so, I mean, I try to tell people that if it's something that's in a newspaper, you know, by and large I can talk about it without a lot of. A huge amount of preparation. If we're talking about general layperson, you know, level discourse, then yeah, but the idea that I'm just going to show up and I'll just. Oh, isn't it fun? I'll just chat as you chat is, is deeply.
It's, it's a, It's a very erroneous conclusion to come to because what happens, especially with a language like when the languages are syntactically so different, like as Japanese and English, you know, the, the, the verb in Japanese always comes at the end, okay? So sometimes when somebody's saying something, I have to take a piece of the sentence and put it up here in a holding pattern, say the other part, then come up here and grab it and put it back in. It's cognitively so taxing and so tiring that, you know, anything that gets, anything that hinders my understanding of the message adds to my exhaustion, adds to my probability of making mistake, adds to the possibility of the diplomacy failing.
So, you know, for example, I tell people I said, if I, if you told somebody, I. You. You are asked to give somebody directions to your house.
Okay? You say, I live in this house. I know this street. I know. So what you do is you go down this street, you take a turn on this, you know, at this stoplight and this and that. You don't even have to. You don't prepare for it because you know your neighborhood.
But if somebody says, I'd like you to speak intelligently about the latest research on genomes.
Okay.
Are they just going to jump into it and just do it? Of course. Not even a native speaker speaking to other native speakers is going to say, okay, let me look on Wikipedia or let me look online and get some information.
You know. So I think that's the other big misconception is that interpreters just speak, you know, a half a dozen languages and they just show up and they just, you know, chat, chat away as you talk and it's easy as pie. In fact, the preparation that, the amount of time I spend preparing even for a, you know, simple meeting, I think there would, I think most people would be pretty surprised at how much preparation goes into an interpreting assignment, especially diplomacy.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: Definitely, definitely. What, what advice would you give to a client, like if they could do it?
It's not that like you can just say, and they will decide if they take, take it into account or not. What would you ask to a client, like to always keep in mind so your job is easier and so they can also that proof that they understand your craft better.
[00:28:16] Speaker B: Right?
Yeah, that's, that's a really great way of asking the question because you know, it's kind of like in a way, it's kind of like if you go to, you know, a specialized store to rent a specialized piece of equipment, like let's say for example, a certain kind of movie camera, you know, the person at the store is going to say, listen, don't leave it in the sun, you know, and try not to get it wet and please don't drop it. There are these like, like these simple things that you need to. So I think the interpreter version of that is you say, listen, between us right now, there's a, between you and the other side, there's going to be this, the wall of communication, right? The wall that, that hinders the communication.
If you can let me know what is really important for you. What are your main talking points? What are the things that you want to say to the other side? What are the specialized terms that you think that, you know, you're going to discuss?
You can give me your talking points or a summary or Even just a 10 minute meeting.
Then the barrier to communication drops.
And I say, can you speak at a regular pace, not too fast, not too slow?
Look at me every now and then if I'm going like this, it means, yep, we're still good, we're still good. I'm Pa, because the person says, and then I follow. Then they say, and I follow. We say simultaneous interpreting. It's not like this. It's like this, right?
So maybe glance at me, look at the other side, not at me, but look at me and see if I'm, you know, if I'm keeping up with you.
Then the barrier drops lower if the, you know, let's make sure that the environment is good. It's not a noisy environment with lots of. And unfortunately in diplomatic interpreting, a lot of times it's really noisy. But can we make it the environment conducive to not too much noise, not too much, not too many interruptions. Then again the barrier drops even further.
So, you know, if I could, if I could wave a magic wand and make people do something to help me, you know, to facilitate the craft, then I think it would be things like that.
[00:30:37] Speaker A: Okay, and, and do you think that when the person question was the word for the client? I don't want to say client anymore. Like you're the interpreter and the other person is the interpretee.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: No, I think, I think probably client is the best word. I don't personally like that word in diplomatic interpreting because it has a kind of private market, you know, business feel to it.
But unfortunately I can't really think of a better.
I. Sometimes I'll say the user of the service or the principal. The principal is, you know, that's a good word we use that especially if it's a high ranking person.
So if the principal will use the principal, the client or the user of the service.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I felt the same way with clients.
Yeah, it sounded like something private, like a company or something like that, anyway. Yeah, yeah. So do you think if the principal, I mean, the user of this service were maybe multilingual or had any other contacts more deep inside with another culture, do you think that might change something of the comprehension that they have of the craft?
[00:32:00] Speaker B: Now you're really getting into the sensitive areas.
[00:32:05] Speaker A: So.
[00:32:07] Speaker B: So the short answer is it depends.
[00:32:12] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:32:14] Speaker B: So I have interpreted four principles who are. First of all, you know, one of the things that we have to straighten out here is we people use the word bilingual or you know, multilingual and kind of like we just use these terms.
But you know, in, in the realm of professional interpretation, there's your A language, your B language, you know, your C language. And so when we, when somebody says bilingual in the interpreter context, it's double A, right? It means my English and my Japanese are near indistinguishable. That a native speaker of Japanese would hear my Japanese and say, oh, yeah, absolutely, this is a native speaker. This was someone born and raised in Japan. Not does it even. There's no doubt. And the same for English. So those double A type linguists are so rare. So rare.
But there, There was a time where I had. I had to interpret for someone who was, for all intents and purposes, double A in their own personal communication, but not as an interpreter.
So they didn't understand. They just. They understood that. Oh, sometimes it's hard to get an expression across because they had experienced in their own self, their own, you know, in their own experiences how to like, oh, it's, it's difficult to explain this concept, but they don't understand the actual craft of the interpretation. And so you can have a person like that be very, you know, be multilingual, be multicultural and. And still make mistakes that make the interpretation harder.
On the other hand, there have been people who have not been. They're not that AA level, but they're, you know, like English. English is A and, you know, French is C, for example. Right.
That could be their level.
But.
But if they have been thrown into a position where they were forced to interpret for people and they. And they've experienced exactly what was difficult about it, then those people are more like, oh, it's important for me to get you the talking points a day in advance. Right? Yes. Oh, it's so nice that you know. That, you know is so.
[00:34:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it definitely depends.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: It depends. Yeah. So it has to be. If someone has had to. Because, Camila, that's what we're talking about here, right? You, like, you and I are we. We are engaged in other languages, but we, like, if I have to, if, if I've gone to a language school to learn how to speak a language, I'm going there to learn how to express my thoughts, to talk about my history. To ask you about your thoughts, ask you.
It's for my own personal communication.
But to become an interpreter, first of all, that's the start line.
You have a high degree of fluency. But then to become an interpreter is to facilitate someone else's communication, not mine.
I'm not engaging in the interpretation to tell you about my opinions or. Or to tell you about. It's to facilitate them. So in that sense, it's a different skill set. It involves multiculturalism, it involves multilingualism, it involves code switching and being present and aware of the diplomatic background. But the exercise itself is very different.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: And it sounds complicated, but also beautiful because, like, if we understand language not only as a combination of words. Right?
[00:36:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: But as a whole system that can be of course cultural but also individual.
Right. And you have your own language. You as you have your own language and when you are in between two other people to other principles users, you are the bridge in between those two different languages that aren't only like a convention, it's like a weight of being.
And if one person is stubborn and don't understand the complexity of your work, that's part of their language. And you will have to be the bridge either way.
Right?
[00:36:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: When, when, when you are looking for like a common ground with those kinds of clients, what do you look for?
[00:37:10] Speaker B: You mean with a client who doesn't understand the craft and, but I have to serve them anyway, is that we.
[00:37:17] Speaker A: Call them a tough client.
[00:37:19] Speaker B: A tough client. Okay. Yeah, so because, I mean there, there.
[00:37:25] Speaker A: There are, there are also like a personal difference that shows up in a different way. Like you don't have to agree or make any face when they say something you don't like.
But the attitude, the attitude that comes out of that client might be tough for you as an interpreter to do your job.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, you know, that's, that's where cultural difference really, that cultural bridge piece becomes almost more important than the linguistic piece. And maybe we'll talk about this later, but that's what's going to really distinguish the human interpreter from the artificial intelligence enabled interpretation. But you know, if you have somebody, let's say, you know, for example, in the United States, you know, there are certain norms in a public speaking setting. So for example, you know, telling a joke at the beginning to warm up the crowd and get people to laugh a little bit helps release the tension.
Okay, so many, many, you know, especially those who are, are very experienced with public speaking in the U.S.
it's kind of just expected that you're going to do that and so they'll do that. And humor can be of a huge challenge as an interpreter or another thing that might, you might see in the US is that's different from Japan. And again, I'm speaking my, my lens is somewhat limited unfortunately, because I'm, I work in this context. But you might see, you know, an American principle speak very proudly about certain achievements. Well, we did this, we did that, we did this. And whereas in a kind of, from the standpoint of cultural norms from the Japanese side, that would sound a little bit too prideful, like a little bit too, you know, I think the, the Japanese side. This is just generally speaking, not everybody, but generally speaking, there would be, expect an expectation that you would be more humble, you know, so, so when those things are coming up, you know, if I have an opportunity to speak to that principle before the diplomatic engagement, you know, and I have an idea of what they're trying to do and they, and they ask me, hey, hey, you know, you got any pointers for me or you have any tips? You know, then I have like a little short, little elevator speech that I say, yep, you know, sir or ma' am, you know, please, you know, if you're going to tell a joke, please try to make it, you know, something that's a universal joke as opposed to like very culturally specific, you know, very culturally specific joke, you know, and, and I can try to build a rapport with the user of the service before so that, you know, and I just, and it's just, it's like this is entirely for the sake of your communication.
You know, as an interpreter, I can't go up to the interlocutors or to the principals and say, you know, you really make my, my job difficult. You know, they're going to say, look, my job is difficult too. You do your job, you know, just do your job, you know, so, and that's, that's, you know, but if a person is saying, wait a minute, if I talk to the interpreter, I give him three or five minutes before the engagement and I tell them, look, this is really important, I think they're going to say this, I don't want to agree to that. You know, this and this. If they tell me that I am so much more empowered and more able to help that person in their mission.
So where I can, where I deal with like the difficult people is like, is if I can successfully say, I am here to facilitate your com, like your communication is my top priority today. And, you know, if I can build that rapport and break through the barrier of like the ignorance.
And it's not just, it's not just, like I said, ignorance. It's. It sounds like as if I'm saying they're stupid. They're not, they're busy, you know, they're probably sleep deprived. They probably, you know, have a hundred things on their mind. So. But if I can make that connection, it really just increases the quality of the interpretation in, in a huge way.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Of course, because then you become a team, right?
You are there to, to team with them and get this successful communication out. Right?
[00:42:01] Speaker B: That's right. That's right.
[00:42:02] Speaker A: And launch it and that's something that, now that you talk about AI, about the use of AI.
AI is a tool. Right, Right. It's not necessarily a teammate. Yeah.
It's something that, if you programmed it somehow, I'm not an expert. Take it with a grain of salt.
If you, if you program it somehow, you can maybe get some feelings out of it as safety as I have these covered. This program or whatever, this bot is not going to let me say anything stupid or whatever, but, I mean, it is never going to be the same. And that is something that we might understand. We might understand, but most people don't.
[00:42:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: Because of the use that we are giving to empties.
[00:43:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:06] Speaker A: Right. In our daily life.
[00:43:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: It becomes easy. It becomes easy fast. You can trust them.
[00:43:13] Speaker B: You.
[00:43:13] Speaker A: You can trust it. I trust ChatGPT. Like, I asked something to ChatGPT, and ChatGPT tells me the thing and I believe it. And that's true, you know.
[00:43:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: And that's the kind of reliance that I have on the technology. Right.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: But again, if we understand translation and interpreting in a deeper way, we can understand that AI is not a human.
Right?
[00:43:44] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: What are the.
We are all talking about the hazards and the challenges and the.
How scared we are because we don't know what this technology is going.
How are we going to use this technology?
Yeah, yeah, but what are your, what's your take on. On those challenges?
[00:44:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I mean, it's, it's front and center in everyone's mind right now, I think. You know, so you mentioned mt, machine translation. There's also, you know, I guess another term that's used in the United States is computer assisted translation. So MT and cat, let's just be honest. These, these tools are here to stay.
People want them.
They're improving the quality of people's lives. Even with their imperfect output, they're not going anywhere.
Okay. So, you know, I, you know, I remember being in a, in a line waiting to buy a ticket in, in Japan, and there was a, you know, a Westerner there.
You know, I don't know where he was from, but he had his phone. He didn't speak a word of Japanese. The lady on the other side of the counter didn't speak a word of English. And they conducted that transaction using that phone. And probably there were errors and mistakes, but it was good enough.
And even at the end, he said something like, you know, hey, you know, I really appreciate your help. And the translation of that came out of the device was a little bit strange, but it didn't matter. She smiled because she understood what he meant. Right.
So that's, that's the situation. So somebody who sees that and says, I'm such a dummy. I've been paying some translator all this time. I could just be using this, you know, wonderful technology.
That's a person. There are like these levels of.
That's someone who, There are certain levels of like client education that we have. We as linguists have to perform. So that's the first level of client education.
You know, the, the person says, I'm just going to throw it in the, you know, in the CAT or the mt. What do. And save me some money. I don't have to pay for the translator. Okay, but you say, listen, if it's, if it was the, the product label says it's, it's made in Turkey, that is. And it comes out Echo and Pavel as opposed to Echo and Turquija. It's going to be.
That falls on you, you know, that you want to use that. Absolutely, by all means. Just so you know, buyer beware. There are these pitfalls that you can fall into.
That's the first level.
The second level is the person who says, oh yeah, yeah, I had that problem with, you know, made in Turkey, you know, mistranslation. Okay.
So I want to have a person, you know, involved.
I want them to proofread the machine translation or I want them to do the translation and use the cat, use the mt. Right.
That person also requires a level of. We have to, we have to educate that person. You say, listen, the person that you're hiring isn't just some, you know, bilingual, just some person who speaks the language. It's know, is a trained professional who works, you know, who's an actual professional linguist. That's, that's what you need, you know, someone who understands the cultural context. Not just silly mistakes like, you know, Pavo Turkia, but like, you know, nuance. You know, so that person needs that, that level of, of client education.
And then ultimately there's, I think the, the, the bigger society, the societal question and which is, you know, listen, if we, if we cede the rights to our communication to the machines, to m. To mt, there are certain things that we can, we can for sure predict will happen. And then there are these whole other areas or we have no idea what's going to happen. And so we need to make, we need to be able to like educate those different stakeholders in an appropriate, intelligent, non condescending, you know, not. Oh, you don't know anything about, you know, nobody wants to hear that. If you're a professional linguist, you need to say without sarcasm, without, you know, to say, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Google Translate is an option for you, sir or ma' am.
I just, you know, let's talk about possible pitfalls to this scenario. Is this document very important to you or is it just an internal document that some bilinguals that will be viewing it? Yeah, the risk between, you know, this is something we're going to launch, you know, in South America to all these different countries, versus we're just having this memo to circulate inside the office.
Vastly different risk situation here. So being able to educate the client in an appropriate and professional manner is one of the areas where I think linguists, human linguists today, are really lacking. We're really lacking there.
[00:49:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree.
On the topic of the advocacy, right?
[00:49:41] Speaker B: Because. Advocacy.
[00:49:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. As you said in our previous conversation.
[00:49:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:48] Speaker A: We linguists need to become advocates because we have been, like, indoors on our perspectives and on our experience with language. And that's why maybe some people have this. Most people have this misconception that linguistics is only grammar and syntaxes and dictionaries.
[00:50:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:50:13] Speaker A: And that's why not only maybe we, as translators might be scared of losing our jobs, but also the mainstream and heads of certain businesses and enterprises are making decisions on how to use this new technology, undermining our craft. Right.
[00:50:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I can't. I don't know about in Colombia, but in the United States, I feel something that the professional linguist community should, you know, feel some kind of regret or remorse about is just how poorly of a job we have done, how we haven't kind of banded together and, you know, and, and worked for, for example, professional certification. Right. In the United States, you can't just be anybody and become a, you know, act as a lawyer or be a psychologist. Right. You have to have a professional license to do those things. Unfortunately, we didn't either have the unity or the foresight as a profession to, you know, to do that, to, to, to gain licensure, because it does make people more interested. They're more likely to listen to you if you, you know, if, if somebody who's just read something on the Internet tells me, oh, you know, the reason that you think like this is because your mother is, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, thanks for your opinion. But if it's, you know, a psychologist, right. Who's actually, you know, then I'm more likely to listen to that. Right. Or or a lawyer. You. So, so we haven't done that and unfortunately we can't. There's no going back, there's no fixing that. But what can we do now? And I think that's, you know, I think the coming together and, you know, if the, the mid tier person who says, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, we can't, we can't make the turkey mistake again, so we need the, you know, we need a person in there, then the devil is in the details. Oh, just, you know, get somebody, you know, we don't, we don't want to pay them too much because we need to cut costs. So we just get somebody from somewhere and just get them to do it. Okay.
What you really need is a localizer. You know, if, for example, we're talking about a website, it's going to be, you know, viewed in, you know, countries in South America or, you know, that, or francophone countries somewhere, you know, that it's not just a matter of word for word translation, but there's like this, this cultural competence, competence that comes into play. So, yeah, that's really the, that's really where we need to do more work.
[00:53:19] Speaker A: I agree, I agree. Do you know of any maybe linguists or famous linguists that may be talking about this in a more public, let's call it, influential way?
[00:53:38] Speaker B: Well, of course, you know, Multilingual magazine is doing phenomenal work with its, with your looking into AI and what does it mean for the profession and, and our various industries.
I feel like, I feel like we have yet to break into the mainstream, you know, where people are talking about it, where everyday people are talking about it, I think, and I'm not entirely dialed into all of that, but my, my impression is that I don't know that we have a famous person, you know, you know, where, where these things tend to come and, and it's, and it captures the imagination of the average person is when something happens in pop culture, you know, and, you know, like, for example, there was a, you know, an award ceremony. There was the, there's a Japanese show called Shogun and it was about, you know, it was very hugely popular last year. It was hugely popular and they won a bunch of awards. And when the, the actors were receiving the awards, there was a part where one of the, one of the actors of one of the main characters, Sonada Hiroyuki, he said, I would like to, you know, thank you for this and can I speak in Japanese to say my, my words of thanks? And he spoke in Japanese. And so that's the time when somebody says, huh?
Oh yeah. Because that's, maybe he wants to really capture his, you know, the essence of what he's trying to say and he doesn't feel comfortable to say it in English.
Like those, those areas where it's like a popular show, it's a popular song, it's a movie, and it's captured the imagination of the general public. Those are places where sometimes you can see a conversation start to happen about this kind of thing. But as for what you're talking about, like an ambassador of the language industry, I think, unfortunately we're not there yet.
[00:55:59] Speaker A: It's complicated because. Yes. I mean, as, as you put it, we have been indoors for a while and I believe that may be that maybe more academic approach in between professionals.
[00:56:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:18] Speaker A: Might have add to it, you know, to the bubble that, that, that, that fortunately this, how do you call it, foreseen crisis is making us watch. Right. And, and, and do something about it. Like, hey, we have to do something because people are not listening. I don't know why.
[00:56:47] Speaker B: Yeah, you know.
[00:56:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's, that's the whole context that, that, that we are trying to, to feed.
[00:56:54] Speaker B: Yeah. I think, I think that that's why it's so important to be able to have, you know, like you, you mentioned about artificial intelligence and you know, speaking honestly, I've, you know, I keep up with a, you know, this thing happened or I read this article, but I'm not, you know, I'm not an AI expert and definitely, definitely not an AI expert in general or one even in the more narrow context of interpretation of trans translation.
But I think that, you know, some of the issues that we're, we're starting to face with this, you know, it's like the, you know, the guy who wrote Sapiens, Yuval Harari, he talks about AI, he says it's not artificial intelligence, it's alien intelligence. Okay. You know, the old paradigm was, hey, I type something into Google and I tell Google what to look, look for, and Google goes and looks for it.
As these, as these AI programs develop and get better and better, as we've seen, you know, this new development with Deep Seek, we might be in a situation where AI decides for itself what to search for.
Right, that's, that's a whole different dimension. Right.
[00:58:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:07] Speaker B: And so that's a, that's a discussion that broader human society we need to be having as international community, we need to be having that conversation. But in the, in the more narrow sense of what it means for our profession, we say you want, do you want computer assisted translation or do you want human assisted translation?
You know, it's like the, like Dr. Seuss, right? It's, it's a cat in the hat. Do you want, do you want the, it's like in the, in the, we spoke about the, you know, the airline pilots, right?
Much of the, the flying is done by a computer, but you still have a human pilot in the cockpit to make sure that the landing is, you know, to do the landing, to do the takeoff, to make course corrections as needed. Okay, so that's squarely, you know, a hat situation. The human is assisting, right?
I mean, I, I'm not a pilot, so I don't know how much exactly their work is. But, but the, a lot of the heavy lifting is being done by the computer.
So if we, if we as linguists are saying, I'm not interested in being just an assistant to your machine translation and there's a good reason to tell the client why it's not, it's a bad idea that you should give the agency and the power to the human. You need to be able to have that conversation in an intelligent manner. You know, and I think that, you know, one of the reasons why in the diplomatic interpreting that I still engage in. One of the things that I think is I think if, if each side stopped using jargon, if each side stopped using their specialized, like, you know, abbreviations and acronyms, if each side spoke in clear and concise sentences with a clear ending and a clear beginning, if it wasn't a noisy background, if, if, if, if. Yeah, sure, go ahead, use your AI. I'm sure it'll define.
But people don't communicate that way. People have frustration, they're tired, they use slang, they refer to things in the past, past historical knowledge. No, you know, that, that people that have been engaged in the meeting for a while know and you don't even have to explain, but a computer would, wouldn't understand those things. So, so as linguists, we need to have that conversation intelligently. And as members of society, we have to really, I think, I think as if, if you allow me, just a little segue course, these people who have been these technology enabled corporists, right, These corporations that are, like the guy said, there's a good software, there's an app for this. Let's just use the app.
They, they're not operating from their standpoint of like, yeah, what is going to be best?
What are the possible implications of the introduction of this technology? They're operating from the standpoint of, oh my God, that company is rolling out a new AI program. And that company's, we got to get there first.
That's their primary concern.
And some of these people have come out and expressly said they are in the AI development industry. And they said, yeah, we don't know where this is going and the government should pump the brakes. Somebody should pump the brakes.
So they say, why don't you pump the brakes? You, you're, you're doing it right? You're. And they said we can't because that company is going. That company is going.
So if we just let them keep doing what they're doing, then I mean, as a society, then we, we, we, we, we will not be empowered stakeholders in the conversation. We're just going to be spectators watching the thing happen.
That's a broader conversation, definitely.
[01:02:20] Speaker A: That's for another episode.
[01:02:23] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:02:24] Speaker A: And another one. And another one. Because it is definitely a better conversation. That, that doesn't only is, that is not only about the development of AI technology, but also as technology as a whole. You know, as, as, as where are we heading with everything that we are developing and where this, whatever we are developing comes from also? Right, right. Because we, we are not perfect. Definitely. We have a lot of things that, yeah, I think that, that we are lacking a structure to process new technology and advance.
But it is, that's the conversation and that's the process. And this is how we learn.
Right. We as humans learn this way. We have learned to learn this way.
Yeah, yeah. And, and yes, I appreciate of course, a lot your, your input on, on, on how we as linguists need to be advocates for, for what we do and of what we know, that we know can help developing this new technology in a healthy way, in a constructive way.
[01:03:50] Speaker B: Absolutely. That broader conversation.
There's so much intelligence being used to develop these tools, but the question is, is there wisdom in how they're being used?
Developing lots of intelligence, lots of smarts, lots of things happening there. But like, are we wisely using these technologies? That's a, I feel like, you know, in the US Government, they say that's above my pay grade. Like, that's a big responsibility. I'm not, I don't know that I can influence that. But as a linguist, I can have an intelligent and meaningful conversation with somebody on a person to person basis that says, yeah, those new ChatGPT and Google Translate, these tools are really cool.
Did you know that?
This is awesome. This could be a risk factor.
And I think that that's where I'm Trying to do is like, well, can I focus on my person or person who can I educate on a person to person basis and appreciate the work that multilingual is doing because I know you're doing a lot of work on AI and looking at it. And so thank you for, and thank you for providing that to us because I think it's a much, much needed source of information.
[01:05:06] Speaker A: Thank you for saying it. And we also, of course appreciate you for taking your time again to be part of this conversation.
And of course, your experience, your knowledge, your inputs, your insights are what we need to be sharing. Right? The thing, the people in the front line doing the job are the ones that need to be listened to right now, we believe.
Okay, Left Eddies, I think we're wrapping up. Is there any advice that you would like to give to people pursuing an interpreting translation career? That's the final question of this interview.
[01:05:51] Speaker B: The final question.
Okay, so I think what I tell people is that, and I've, and I think I've been saying this for a while is that being the language person, just the language person is no longer enough. There was a time, you know, 10, 15 years ago, 20 years ago maybe in my career where I could say, well, I'm just a language guy. And that was enough to land, you know, certain, certain jobs, certain positions in today's world. I just don't think that's, that's the case. And so I always, I think the, the new paradigm is if you're interested in interpretation or translation, it's important to match it with another skill, you know. And what I saw, what I saw in the realm of like, you know, legal discovery work was that, you know, in the past a Japanese linguist just got really good money, really good money. And a lawyer who was working on a certain legal project, short term project, got really good money.
But over time, what happened was the pay for the linguist dropped and the pay for the lawyer dropped a little bit. But if you had a linguist who could speak and read Japanese, then their pay was very high.
And so I think that's the future, that's the future paradigm. It's like you have a certain skill set and also you have the intercultural competence and the ability to talk intelligently about your field of expertise in the language.
I think that's going to be really what's going to be the new deciding factor in the, in the labor market, you know. And so I, so for example, if someone says, well, I like to play video games and I'm also interested in translation, then I would, you know, highly recommend those people to do a deep dive into being able to speak intelligently about video games, the hottest games, the games in the past that created the. The groundwork for these new games. Be able to speak about those games and the history of that technology intelligently in both languages, you know, and also pursue this language training as well.
I think that will be the deciding factor.
I just really appreciate this opportunity to have a conversation with you, Camila. I hope you have a wonderful weekend and I look forward to continuing the conversation.
[01:08:29] Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you.
[01:08:31] Speaker B: Take care. Thank you.
